It's a timely break from Project 2025's constant assault. I couldn't resist making this comparison after I went to Ávila. We also visited cathedrals in Segovia and Burgos, as well as an unfinished basilica in Alba de Tormes. It was hard not to look at the entire trek as "What Theocracy Creates."
I read your posts almost every day. I thought this one added nicely to the "separation of church and state" argument. And a little bit of world history is always fun. :)
Excellent post as always. I do wonder why you don’t include those who practice the Nature / Earth / Native-Indigenous/ Goddess-Horned Lord of the Forest / Dianic / Pagan (an umbrella term) based religions or spiritualities as CN’s target groups.? Those of us who are Pagan are historical targets of Christian extremists since they call us ‘Satinistists’. Those who are members of the Satanic Temple draw specific ire from CN’s since they fight back against the CN’s. Atheists and agnostics face the same CN backlash.
I’m well aware that CN’s will broad blanket attacks upon everyone who doesn’t conform or bend the knee to their brand of religious / punitive hatred. Many non-CN’s already view the above groups with distain and fear.
Please include the term ‘Pagan’ or ‘Nature-based’ religions / spiritualities. We’re not ‘New Age’ though CN’s hate that demographic as well and use it as an umbrella term. Great Gods but having candles, a quartz crystal or a cat is enough to condemn a person!
I fear greatly for the historical targets of Christian extremists. Far too many people aren’t aware that their proverbial house is on fire, until it’s too late and no fireman will come to save them.
Your comment is timely. I'm finishing up tomorrow's installment, and I included Pagans in a list of faiths they will not accept before I saw this comment. I always hesitate to put atheists and agnostics in such lists, because I know many in those camps don't consider those beliefs to be faith matters. I recently had a lively discussion with an avowed atheist about this. (I think whatever we believe about what happens after we die is a faith issue, because nobody can prove they're right; he thinks believing nothing is there is divorced from faith.)
Interesting way to look at it. I tend to think asking what happens after we die is an oxymoron, answered by the definition of the word, but it's true we can't prove that, even as it seems puzzling to me why we would think otherwise. I also tend to think the burden of proof is on those who posit something rather than on those who do not, but then none of this is consequential until it affects what we do while we are alive, and there's the rub, any way we answer the question.
I'm also a very nerdy person who loves to imagine multiverses and parallel lives in other dimensions and similar. Probably a result of so much science deprivation when I was younger. I don't understand much, but I like to read geeky science stuff now.
Last year, I read a book called "White Holes" by Carlo Rovelli, and I'm still hung up on its meaning in my head. I need to go back and read it again. And I loved the original Back to the Future.
I realize that believing something follows this life is a choice. To me, it's a hopeful choice, but it isn't a choice I foist on anyone else or try to persuade them to believe or accept. My husband actually envies my ability to hope. And I'm equally hopeful that one's choice to believe there's nothing won't penalize them if they're wrong and there's something. I still live this life like it's the only one I'll get, here or the hereafter.
The trouble with hope is that you always end up disappointed. That said, it does seem to be an essential thing to have to keep living each day, so I'm glad my medications at least do that job well, even as illogical as it seems.
Hope keeps me alive. Without hope, I would die. And regardless of how many times I've been disappointed, I'd still take the hope that led me on those journeys over not having had them at all. I've learned how to deploy hope more healthily (ie "I hope I'll have a relationship with my mother" or "I hope my dad will choose me over her for a day" are not hopes I engage in these days.) But I know it's hard to hope when one fights to manage their expectations and worries about different outcomes.
This is an aside but may be worth putting here for a future newsletter or series on Christian Nationalist objections to Pagan beliefs. I'm not sure how many of you are here, but I always appreciate it when people comment and let me know more about them. It helps me better tailor this work.
I don't write much about my history directly here, so I'm not sure if you've seen my comments about my yoga and meditation practice. Or my reiki healing sessions. I don't think I've shared here that I visited an indigenous healer in Ecuador or that I went on a pilgrimage to a Buddhist temple in Japan to touch a statue renowned for its healing properties. I even tried to visit with Druids on Anglesey Island in northern Wales. I was in the throes of chemotherapy and steroid treatments to wrangle my parasitic disease into remission, and these things helped me cope where traditional Christian faith did not. I was going to write a memoir about this journey but went in a different book direction as 45's insane presidency progressed. That project subsequently never went anywhere.
So I would like to dedicate a newsletter or series to these faith modalities, because I understand more than many how profoundly Christian Nationalists hate them. One of my family members sent me a book about how yoga and reiki causes demon possession. They attack these things because church attendance, the Bible, and prayer are the only things that "should" make a person feel better. It's also why they deplore secular therapy.
I'm atheist..... but the christo-fascists will lump all of us together into one bucket, calling us all sinners and devil worshippers. That of course would be gaslighting by them, but they do that with great ease, they throw shit at the wall and some of it will stick. I doubt they see much difference between wicca, pagan, nature, humanist, spiritualist, agnostic, atheist.
Even regular secular people naively think that agnostics and atheist somehow worship satan.
They differentiate between atheists and the rest, which are all Satanists to them. Also agnostics are atheists to them. There’s no nuance there. If you doubt God exists, they call you an atheist. They also love to call pagan faiths “cults” in a derogatory way.
It takes heaping doses of delusion to write a book and believe enough people will 1. Pay money for it; and 2. Actually read it such that its writer can make a living. I’ve been that delusional 5 times. 😂 And even though I am a NYT bestselling author, the US trad publishing industry still considers me a poor investment. (The crux of feedback from an actual book rejection last year. I’m not sorry. It led to this work and gave me the freedom to write what I wanted instead of a memoir that navel-gazed on my trauma.)
I’m not sure I’ll ever write another book, though I don’t rule it out. I’ve already written a 125K or so word book in public here, and we have a little over 4 months to go.
Love this article! Teresa of Avila was subject to the inquisition also . Because of her mystical experiences folks thought she might be a witch. But she was so clever and knew scripture so well she made it through grueling questioning and they had to drop charges. She’s an incredible inspiration to me as a woman and a spiritual seeker.
She was a reformer and a progressive who really brought the receipts. There are many lessons in her life and work for us today.
The picture of the shrine is adjacent to the room where she died in Ávila. It's a shrine to her. We visited her namesake church there, which is across the walled city from the gothic cathedral.
How awesome. I hope to visit one of these days. The colonialism and religious oppression are all intertwined with the mysticism and the sublime. So thought provoking!
Some good news for this morning from Simon Rosenberg. Fox News announced a poll showing Biden up 3 points over Trump. I’m going to grab another handful of postcards and start writing. I’m writing with a great group , SeniotsTakingAction.org. It’s free, fun, and an antidote to despair. We are particularly interested in promoting inter generational support for democracy and getting out the vote 😊🙏
I agree. Postcards help me stay focused. As someone posted, “you can’t roll up your sleeves if you’re wringing your hands.” There is another great group out there called Faithful America that’s fighting back against Christian Nationalism. You two should meet if you haven’t already 😊
I don't have any historical data to back this up, but here it goes: I think that Torquemada and his ilk were actually sadists who used their religious zealotry as a cover. It wasn't enough that they forced confessions out of others by torture, but they had to burn them alive as well. Antichristian can't even begin to describe these acts of barbarism.
PS: the Spanish words for "vermin" is "zabandijas" or "alimañas".
Good points, all. It's hard not to get discouraged of disheartened by all this. But, this being Juneteenth, let me pass on a quote from John Lewis that should give us heart:
"Ours is not the struggle of one day one week, or one year. Ours is not the struggle of one judicial appointment or presidential term. Ours is the struggle of a lifetime, or maybe even many lifetimes, and each one of us in every generation must do our part.
Nothing can stop the power a committed and determined people to make a difference in our society.
Take a long, hard look down the road you will have to travel once you have made a commitment to work for change. Know that this transformation will not happen right away. Change often takes time. It rarely happens all at once. In the movement, we didn't know how history would play itself out. When we were getting arrested and waiting in jail or standing in unmoveable lines on the courthouse steps, we didn't know what would happen, but we knew it had to happen."
We can't give in to despair. We should focus on getting Democrats and moderates to vote for Biden in swing states. It's not about a candidate being perfect. Please look at Oath - https://app.oath.vote/ - where you can choose the presidency, Congress, or reproductive rights (or all 3). Oath analyzes thousands of races and tells you where to most effectively donate. If you can't afford to donate money, pls forward to everyone you know. We all know someone who can afford to donate. Do something! I've stopped rage-posting on Washington Post comment sections, and I'm now spending that time sharing this info on Substacks' comments, and by emailing my friends and acquaintances. The stakes are too high for us to give up.
This space is me not despairing. I believe it will make a difference. The links you post and the work we all do will make a difference, too. Thanks for recommending this one.
Taking action is the antidote to despair. I"m trying to get people to act. Too many people I know have given in to despair., thinking that the extreme Republicans have already won. You are taking action here and informing others, which is great.
I'm also supporting earlywrm and Blue24 to give money to Democrat candidates in competitive races, and I'm writing hundreds of postcards. I can't wring my hands when they're busy writing. :)
And as ominous as this space can be, we have a lot of reason to be hopeful. I can't get myself there every second of every day, but in general, I'm hopeful for America.
Sorry to post this here, since it only tangentially relates to your excellent post from today. But I came across this Atlantic article, and as my wont I shared it with my small circle of friends. I figured it might give you some food for thought as well, so here goes:
"From 2019, this book review looks into why, in general, humans are less violent than our close relatives, the chimpanzee. Turns out another close primate relative has clues. From the article:
"Enter the bonobos, to whom [book author] Wrangham turns as he considers how diminished aggression may have been selected for in the evolution of humans. Once thought to be a type of chimpanzee, bonobos are now known to be a different species. The standard view holds that they separated from chimps 1 to 2 million years ago, and were isolated south of a bend in the Congo River. Female bonobos form strong coalitions—partly based on sex with each other—that keep a lid on male violence."
So... lesbianism helps civilize a society? Wonder what Christo-Fascists would make of that."
Then I'll give you one more. Just additional proof the Fascists are really in control of the GOP. The Washington Times, being a conservative rag, shows their glee well.
"Thom Hartmann pointed this out in his Monday essay. This WaTimes article shows the GLEE the GOP has in using Congressional pressure to shutter fact checkers, with the goal of having NO fact checking of their lies. Goebbels would be proud."
Chimpanzees are scary. Hard to be more violent than humans. And bonobos are very interesting. The signs I've seen at the zoo more or less say to expect them to frequently be engaging in orgies. I imagine the Christian Nationalists will have to shut the zoos down. Way too much science.
thank you for this article Andra. When I read the history you've shared about the inquisition, I try not to feel too much grief for those who suffered and were tortured. It saddens me. It's kinda like a weird survivors guilt. Peoples inhumane treatment of others. Using faith to justify it just makes it so absurd.
During my brutal divorce I read Hindu texts and rituals and read prayers of female gods. Of course I chose the most fierce one of them. Kali....she gave me hope. There it is the word hope.
Spirituality seems to feel more comforting than religious beliefs to me. Respecting what others feel and believe is loving kindness.
It’s my opinion of course, but faith exists to help us cope with our own mortality. It is rich and varied and complex because it comes from us, people who respond to different things. I’m glad you found something that helped during a hard time. (I sang the song “Smile” on repeat during mine.) We’d be a much healthier society if we have people grace when they say, “This belief/ritual/therapy/practice/crystal/mantra/etc makes me feel better.”
Indeed. But it's too bad we deal with the subset of folks that say "My belief makes me feel better. And now I'm gonna force it on all of you, whether you like it or not."
I love today's post! Thank you!
It's a timely break from Project 2025's constant assault. I couldn't resist making this comparison after I went to Ávila. We also visited cathedrals in Segovia and Burgos, as well as an unfinished basilica in Alba de Tormes. It was hard not to look at the entire trek as "What Theocracy Creates."
I read your posts almost every day. I thought this one added nicely to the "separation of church and state" argument. And a little bit of world history is always fun. :)
Yes, GREAT article today!
I’m going off on a tangent for a couple of weeks. Related to P2025 and CN, but a break of sorts from P2025 all the time.
Excellent post as always. I do wonder why you don’t include those who practice the Nature / Earth / Native-Indigenous/ Goddess-Horned Lord of the Forest / Dianic / Pagan (an umbrella term) based religions or spiritualities as CN’s target groups.? Those of us who are Pagan are historical targets of Christian extremists since they call us ‘Satinistists’. Those who are members of the Satanic Temple draw specific ire from CN’s since they fight back against the CN’s. Atheists and agnostics face the same CN backlash.
I’m well aware that CN’s will broad blanket attacks upon everyone who doesn’t conform or bend the knee to their brand of religious / punitive hatred. Many non-CN’s already view the above groups with distain and fear.
Please include the term ‘Pagan’ or ‘Nature-based’ religions / spiritualities. We’re not ‘New Age’ though CN’s hate that demographic as well and use it as an umbrella term. Great Gods but having candles, a quartz crystal or a cat is enough to condemn a person!
I fear greatly for the historical targets of Christian extremists. Far too many people aren’t aware that their proverbial house is on fire, until it’s too late and no fireman will come to save them.
Thank you for this and all your posts. 🙏💕
Your comment is timely. I'm finishing up tomorrow's installment, and I included Pagans in a list of faiths they will not accept before I saw this comment. I always hesitate to put atheists and agnostics in such lists, because I know many in those camps don't consider those beliefs to be faith matters. I recently had a lively discussion with an avowed atheist about this. (I think whatever we believe about what happens after we die is a faith issue, because nobody can prove they're right; he thinks believing nothing is there is divorced from faith.)
Interesting way to look at it. I tend to think asking what happens after we die is an oxymoron, answered by the definition of the word, but it's true we can't prove that, even as it seems puzzling to me why we would think otherwise. I also tend to think the burden of proof is on those who posit something rather than on those who do not, but then none of this is consequential until it affects what we do while we are alive, and there's the rub, any way we answer the question.
I'm also a very nerdy person who loves to imagine multiverses and parallel lives in other dimensions and similar. Probably a result of so much science deprivation when I was younger. I don't understand much, but I like to read geeky science stuff now.
I think about parallel lives multiverses as well. Not too deeply though. I get lost after watching Back to the Future 2 and forget 3! LOL 🤣
Last year, I read a book called "White Holes" by Carlo Rovelli, and I'm still hung up on its meaning in my head. I need to go back and read it again. And I loved the original Back to the Future.
Yes, that stuff is interesting and mind boggling.
I realize that believing something follows this life is a choice. To me, it's a hopeful choice, but it isn't a choice I foist on anyone else or try to persuade them to believe or accept. My husband actually envies my ability to hope. And I'm equally hopeful that one's choice to believe there's nothing won't penalize them if they're wrong and there's something. I still live this life like it's the only one I'll get, here or the hereafter.
The trouble with hope is that you always end up disappointed. That said, it does seem to be an essential thing to have to keep living each day, so I'm glad my medications at least do that job well, even as illogical as it seems.
Hope keeps me alive. Without hope, I would die. And regardless of how many times I've been disappointed, I'd still take the hope that led me on those journeys over not having had them at all. I've learned how to deploy hope more healthily (ie "I hope I'll have a relationship with my mother" or "I hope my dad will choose me over her for a day" are not hopes I engage in these days.) But I know it's hard to hope when one fights to manage their expectations and worries about different outcomes.
Yeah, agreed. It's the journeys. It's just that there's also the feeling of 'I still haven't found what I'm looking for'.
Thank you for including Pagans in the next post, I greatly look forward to reading it.
This is an aside but may be worth putting here for a future newsletter or series on Christian Nationalist objections to Pagan beliefs. I'm not sure how many of you are here, but I always appreciate it when people comment and let me know more about them. It helps me better tailor this work.
I don't write much about my history directly here, so I'm not sure if you've seen my comments about my yoga and meditation practice. Or my reiki healing sessions. I don't think I've shared here that I visited an indigenous healer in Ecuador or that I went on a pilgrimage to a Buddhist temple in Japan to touch a statue renowned for its healing properties. I even tried to visit with Druids on Anglesey Island in northern Wales. I was in the throes of chemotherapy and steroid treatments to wrangle my parasitic disease into remission, and these things helped me cope where traditional Christian faith did not. I was going to write a memoir about this journey but went in a different book direction as 45's insane presidency progressed. That project subsequently never went anywhere.
So I would like to dedicate a newsletter or series to these faith modalities, because I understand more than many how profoundly Christian Nationalists hate them. One of my family members sent me a book about how yoga and reiki causes demon possession. They attack these things because church attendance, the Bible, and prayer are the only things that "should" make a person feel better. It's also why they deplore secular therapy.
I'm atheist..... but the christo-fascists will lump all of us together into one bucket, calling us all sinners and devil worshippers. That of course would be gaslighting by them, but they do that with great ease, they throw shit at the wall and some of it will stick. I doubt they see much difference between wicca, pagan, nature, humanist, spiritualist, agnostic, atheist.
Even regular secular people naively think that agnostics and atheist somehow worship satan.
They differentiate between atheists and the rest, which are all Satanists to them. Also agnostics are atheists to them. There’s no nuance there. If you doubt God exists, they call you an atheist. They also love to call pagan faiths “cults” in a derogatory way.
If the time becomes right, I could see that shelved book project being beneficial to many. Please hang on to your notes, Andra.
It takes heaping doses of delusion to write a book and believe enough people will 1. Pay money for it; and 2. Actually read it such that its writer can make a living. I’ve been that delusional 5 times. 😂 And even though I am a NYT bestselling author, the US trad publishing industry still considers me a poor investment. (The crux of feedback from an actual book rejection last year. I’m not sorry. It led to this work and gave me the freedom to write what I wanted instead of a memoir that navel-gazed on my trauma.)
I’m not sure I’ll ever write another book, though I don’t rule it out. I’ve already written a 125K or so word book in public here, and we have a little over 4 months to go.
Yeah, writing is beneficial to humanity, but no one will pay for it anymore.
Some do. I’m grateful for every one of them.
Love this article! Teresa of Avila was subject to the inquisition also . Because of her mystical experiences folks thought she might be a witch. But she was so clever and knew scripture so well she made it through grueling questioning and they had to drop charges. She’s an incredible inspiration to me as a woman and a spiritual seeker.
She was a reformer and a progressive who really brought the receipts. There are many lessons in her life and work for us today.
The picture of the shrine is adjacent to the room where she died in Ávila. It's a shrine to her. We visited her namesake church there, which is across the walled city from the gothic cathedral.
How awesome. I hope to visit one of these days. The colonialism and religious oppression are all intertwined with the mysticism and the sublime. So thought provoking!
Some good news for this morning from Simon Rosenberg. Fox News announced a poll showing Biden up 3 points over Trump. I’m going to grab another handful of postcards and start writing. I’m writing with a great group , SeniotsTakingAction.org. It’s free, fun, and an antidote to despair. We are particularly interested in promoting inter generational support for democracy and getting out the vote 😊🙏
My husband is bringing my postcards in a few weeks. I’m itching to start them. I love these programs.
I agree. Postcards help me stay focused. As someone posted, “you can’t roll up your sleeves if you’re wringing your hands.” There is another great group out there called Faithful America that’s fighting back against Christian Nationalism. You two should meet if you haven’t already 😊
I don't have any historical data to back this up, but here it goes: I think that Torquemada and his ilk were actually sadists who used their religious zealotry as a cover. It wasn't enough that they forced confessions out of others by torture, but they had to burn them alive as well. Antichristian can't even begin to describe these acts of barbarism.
PS: the Spanish words for "vermin" is "zabandijas" or "alimañas".
I think a lot of fanatics become addicted to the hit of power they get from sadism.
" it's very likely he used words like vermin"....... absolutely he did, and we know someone else like that.
I needed to bathe after reading about him. Such an asshole.
Good points, all. It's hard not to get discouraged of disheartened by all this. But, this being Juneteenth, let me pass on a quote from John Lewis that should give us heart:
"Ours is not the struggle of one day one week, or one year. Ours is not the struggle of one judicial appointment or presidential term. Ours is the struggle of a lifetime, or maybe even many lifetimes, and each one of us in every generation must do our part.
Nothing can stop the power a committed and determined people to make a difference in our society.
Take a long, hard look down the road you will have to travel once you have made a commitment to work for change. Know that this transformation will not happen right away. Change often takes time. It rarely happens all at once. In the movement, we didn't know how history would play itself out. When we were getting arrested and waiting in jail or standing in unmoveable lines on the courthouse steps, we didn't know what would happen, but we knew it had to happen."
They want us to feel hopeless. I refuse to give in. This comment is particularly potent today. Thank you for posting it for us.
We can't give in to despair. We should focus on getting Democrats and moderates to vote for Biden in swing states. It's not about a candidate being perfect. Please look at Oath - https://app.oath.vote/ - where you can choose the presidency, Congress, or reproductive rights (or all 3). Oath analyzes thousands of races and tells you where to most effectively donate. If you can't afford to donate money, pls forward to everyone you know. We all know someone who can afford to donate. Do something! I've stopped rage-posting on Washington Post comment sections, and I'm now spending that time sharing this info on Substacks' comments, and by emailing my friends and acquaintances. The stakes are too high for us to give up.
This space is me not despairing. I believe it will make a difference. The links you post and the work we all do will make a difference, too. Thanks for recommending this one.
Taking action is the antidote to despair. I"m trying to get people to act. Too many people I know have given in to despair., thinking that the extreme Republicans have already won. You are taking action here and informing others, which is great.
I'm also supporting earlywrm and Blue24 to give money to Democrat candidates in competitive races, and I'm writing hundreds of postcards. I can't wring my hands when they're busy writing. :)
And as ominous as this space can be, we have a lot of reason to be hopeful. I can't get myself there every second of every day, but in general, I'm hopeful for America.
Sorry to post this here, since it only tangentially relates to your excellent post from today. But I came across this Atlantic article, and as my wont I shared it with my small circle of friends. I figured it might give you some food for thought as well, so here goes:
"From 2019, this book review looks into why, in general, humans are less violent than our close relatives, the chimpanzee. Turns out another close primate relative has clues. From the article:
"Enter the bonobos, to whom [book author] Wrangham turns as he considers how diminished aggression may have been selected for in the evolution of humans. Once thought to be a type of chimpanzee, bonobos are now known to be a different species. The standard view holds that they separated from chimps 1 to 2 million years ago, and were isolated south of a bend in the Congo River. Female bonobos form strong coalitions—partly based on sex with each other—that keep a lid on male violence."
So... lesbianism helps civilize a society? Wonder what Christo-Fascists would make of that."
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/how-humans-tamed-themselves/580447/
Oh gosh, I LOVE THIS. Never be sorry for adding to a discussion here. I think I read this when it came out, but I’m going back to read it again.
It’s lost to history, but I suspect the birth of the Bible/Torah/Koran were all reactions to matriarchal society and female rule.
Male violence and ego does tend to be the common link behind all of humanity's problems.
Then I'll give you one more. Just additional proof the Fascists are really in control of the GOP. The Washington Times, being a conservative rag, shows their glee well.
"Thom Hartmann pointed this out in his Monday essay. This WaTimes article shows the GLEE the GOP has in using Congressional pressure to shutter fact checkers, with the goal of having NO fact checking of their lies. Goebbels would be proud."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/jun/14/big-win-house-judiciary-cheers-reported-dismantlin/
Chimpanzees are scary. Hard to be more violent than humans. And bonobos are very interesting. The signs I've seen at the zoo more or less say to expect them to frequently be engaging in orgies. I imagine the Christian Nationalists will have to shut the zoos down. Way too much science.
I’m sure watching animals have sex makes Mike Johnson think about sex. So probably. 😂
There's always been a big group of bonobos in Milwaukee, but I haven't been there in a few years.
They probably painted all the glass black. Oh wait, that'd be the Florida zoo... ;-)
thank you for this article Andra. When I read the history you've shared about the inquisition, I try not to feel too much grief for those who suffered and were tortured. It saddens me. It's kinda like a weird survivors guilt. Peoples inhumane treatment of others. Using faith to justify it just makes it so absurd.
During my brutal divorce I read Hindu texts and rituals and read prayers of female gods. Of course I chose the most fierce one of them. Kali....she gave me hope. There it is the word hope.
Spirituality seems to feel more comforting than religious beliefs to me. Respecting what others feel and believe is loving kindness.
It’s my opinion of course, but faith exists to help us cope with our own mortality. It is rich and varied and complex because it comes from us, people who respond to different things. I’m glad you found something that helped during a hard time. (I sang the song “Smile” on repeat during mine.) We’d be a much healthier society if we have people grace when they say, “This belief/ritual/therapy/practice/crystal/mantra/etc makes me feel better.”
Indeed. But it's too bad we deal with the subset of folks that say "My belief makes me feel better. And now I'm gonna force it on all of you, whether you like it or not."
I don’t think their beliefs make many of them feel better. I think they want the rest of us to be as miserable as many of them are.
Yes, exactly.